Communication Page

 

Recently on the web I found these words:

“Anyone who knows marketing knows that you show where your guy's strengths are, not where your opponents weaknesses are. If you not following this rule that will only make people "indirectly" go against your views, just to have the satisfaction of knowing they are not like you.

Just one example:
There is the “Reader Digest” /www.rd.com/ website were a guy using right hand for green snips (instead of red snips) while cutting a round hole in the duct! How come he doesn’t know that it’s wrong! Definitely this guy doesn’t know what he’s doing! But any of you who will try to replicate that, going to understand very soon how difficult it is.
Did I hurt your feelings by brining this example out? According to the marketing rules above probably yes!
Will you ever try to use this “expert’s” advice in your next ductwork project? I hope not! 

 By no means I’m an expert in the marketing, but if you ask me why they are doing that my guess would be:

 Let’s take closer look on both items above:

From time to time I’m opening and closing pages like this one where I’m criticizing "Forum" and the other websites. Would be or could be my customers asking questions out there and after receiving vague or stupid answers quitting enjoying it, because it was for free anyway!

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Instead of just simply answer the question, this guy keep fighting the terror, but already here on our ground! – 52 bullets in your a…, m….!!

Answer. deejoe:

I thought it was that easy. I did not know if there was some "fudge factor" in the calculations. Thanks to all who have been helpful.

According to 5 grader “deejoe” 12” duct can handle only four 6” heat runs but it’s not true. The speed of airflow in 12” duct is much higher than in 6” pipe its why 12” duct can handle more 6” heat runs then five grade geometry champion “deejoe” can imagine! But Brhino14 enjoying the answer because it was free of charge!

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I have separated the laundry area with an interior wall and I would like to know if I can move the vent down the wall so that I can have the heat in the main part of the basement.
How would I go about doing that?
What would I need to purchase? Also, is there a vent that would be approx. 3 1/2 inches deep to fit down inbetween the stud.......
also, where would I cut it and what piece of duct work would I need?
Thanks very much......

Here a lot of questions, they are not difficult for a professional guy if he would be paid for the answers, but for free....lets see what she got:

A. Yes you can dahling, detach the transition from the round elbow (look at the picture there no round elbow!), match the dia of the pipe, extend the run then re attach the transition and grille.
the transition is already 3 1/2 x 10. I can hear you scratching yur pretty head; LOL a transition is the piece that transitions, IE changes from round to rectangular. You can also run 3 1/2 x 10 inside the wall down to where you want the grille the use a rectangular elbow to re attach the grille

This moron is saying: “the transition is already 3 1/2 x 10” I don’t know what he is talking about because if he meant a 10” x 4” ninety degree boot which you can see on the picture, but its 10” x 4” not 10”x 3 ½”!
He doest explain what he means when says: “You can also run 3 1/2 x 10 inside the wall”

Q. Jackie dahling you are fabulous. And yes, I did scratch my head (Of course you would), but then I saw your great explanation. (This is great! Of course its great explanation because it’s for free!)
So that means that I have to cut the long round tube that is there now, near the top plate, and then attach a long rectangular extension all the way down to near the bottom of the wall, (I want to put the new vent closer to the floor, maybe 12 inches from the floor?)and then attach the grill?
That means I have to buy another transition thingy, right.
I don't want to keep it in the ceiling.
Have I got it right? Probably not.

After his stupid explanations she is definitely confused, but don’t forget it’s still for free, so it’s better to be polite!

A. The long round thingy (now this moron is teasing her) will easily disconnect, ( should be screws in it ), then you just need to extend the round thingy and get another roundthingy that is bent, an elbow, then get a special thingy the is round on one end and recangular on the other ( transition ), then you get rtectangular thingyies and extend that as you said until you get close to the floor and get another special bent thingy, rectangular, elbow and re attach the grille.

Well this guy wants that she run the 10”x 3 ½” duct outside the wall, he was so preoccupied with “thingys” so he forgot about everything else!

Q. I get it! They should call those things thingies, then I will better understand.
Jackie, do I have to cut the top plate in order to put in the elbow thingy in? (Look, she is smart, but not smart enough to stop this insanity!) And then continue to follow you instructions sith rectangular thingys. Also how do I secure the rectangular things to the studs? I don't just leave it there loose, do I?
Thanks Jackie, you are wonderful. (Of course, because Jackie doing it for free!)

A. I would avoid cutting the top plate at all costs. (Why that, he is a such moron)I believe you are finishing one side only. (But she said it going to be a laundry room on the other side) They make a rectangular thingy that looks like a wide "U" for gettin under a beam, (it’s definitely something new for me, I never have seen anything like that in my entire life!) in this case you use it vertically and can swing under the top plate and into the stud bay, To connect either round or rectangular thingies they slip together the you use short self tapping screws and then they make a sliver tape to seal the joints. NO DUCK TAPE. (Why not, moron!) AND YES that is its original name :}:} NOT duct . As far as running thingies in the stud bay they make strapping that you can screw across the studs and then into the ducting to keep it in place and not rattling all over.

HAPPY BUNNY DAY

Q. Thanks Jackie, and a Happy Bunny Day to you too!

Thank you so much for the explanation, as I was going to start cuting the stud in order to get the rectangular thingy down between the studs.
Thanks for telling me about the large U shape thingy to go around the top plate. Makes my job MUCH easier.
When I'm done, I am going to show you so you can see what a wonderful teacher you are.
Thanks again so very much.

Well I’m also will wait to see the monster she’ll create after such explanations! But I’m still waiting! 

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This exchange just recently took place on another "DIY Forum" website. The story is very long, so I decided to skip most of it, but if in a few words: a guy wanted to save money by doing the unit and ductwork installation by himself. He tried to find necessary information, but even on this kind of forum he just hit the wall. After several attempts he, by the way like most of you who trying to find answers for this kind of questions, just gave up. But if most of you walking away silently he made a speech:

This being a DIY forum and having all of what I felt is good information for the job I'm looking at, I thought I'd give it a go. The analysis was done. I have a detailed Heat Gain/Heat Loss report. I have a CFM by room report. I have detailed diagrams of my attic and main floor with square footage, floor measurements and window locations. I have the right sized equipment for the job. I understand any kind of math you could throw at me. I understood then and now that working with refrigeration sealed systems is regulated work requiring special training and certified people to do specific tasks and have someone who is willing to do these parts as a favor...so...I *thought* I'd bone up on what is needed to do the duct layout and move forward with the job. So my closed door comment...all of the above combined fed into that.

I was not being sarcastic when I said I guess I'm going to hire someone. I'm smart enough to not beat my head against the wall trying to do something blindly when dealing with thousands of dollars...but I am going to help where I can and I'm going to learn why what is done along the way so I know what is installed in my house, how it works and why.

One of the "experts", who basically wasting their time on this particular website, gave him an answer he disserved:

It reads as if you have done your homework on this project, most people looking to save a buck on a DIY install don't and then wonder why their system isn't perfect.

As you have found out there is a fair amount of engineering work that needs to be done for a properly functioning system and I'll go on record stating that properly engineered and installed residential systems are a rarity these days.

As with every other trade the HVAC industry is quite competitive. Few residential installation companies have an engineer in house and so they rely on computer programs and rules of thumb to make their designs. These computer programs run the gamut from very good to just mediocre.

Since the industry IS competitive the contractors generally shave the corners pretty tightly and far too often install ductwork that is barely adequate in size and this (along with other cost considerations) has forced manufacturers to design their equipment (furnaces and air handlers) to function in worst case scenarios. Return air ducts are almost always inadequate for the job and noise is rarely a consideration when designing the duct systems and blowers.

The result is a system that is noisy and less efficient than it could be.

It has been to protect them selves from the typical DIY-er that manufacturers have instituted the requirement of professional installation to have a valid warranty. While the equipment IS rugged enough to muddle through with less-than-ideal installation it cannot be expected to work when someone tries to install a 120,000 BTU furnace in their home using only a six inch duct off the discharge plenum and then taking several 5 inch branches off this original 6 inch to feed the various rooms.

Nor can the equipment perform properly (or last) when the return air is made with a single 8 inch duct and no filter. There are tests that should be made at the time of installation (but are often not) to be sure of proper temperature rise across the furnace's heat exchanger(s) and various combustion tests. DIY-ers seldom have the tools or test equipment to do these tests.

Other boards may have a preponderance of heating contractors responding to questions and unfortunately many of these "professionals" (with unprofessional attitudes) look upon DIY-ers as stealing food from the mouths of their families.

Then, of course, there are the many government regulations in this industry that range from energy conservation to fire codes and refrigerant handling certifications that few DIY-ers either know, understand or in some cases even care about.

So yeah, it IS a closed industry, but for many, many reasons.

So, of course you can try to submit your questions on this kind of websites. But don’t forget that for free question you may get free of sense answer!

TazinCR

Is your A/C unit large enough to take on the extra capacity?

Mister TazinCR obviously doesn’t know that when someone even do the load calculation he/she counting the basement too. But it doesn’t make too much senceanyway, because in a worst case scenario furnace will work just little bit longer!

Furd
The "easy" way is rarely the proper way and it could seriously upset the proper performance of your entire heating system. Ideally you want to do a heat loss / heat gain calculation on at least the room to which you will be adding the ductwork to in order to properly size the ducts.

Same answer and read my comment above. Did those guys help? I don’t think so!

The proper place to connect the supply duct is at the furnace discharge plenum or trunk duct. Be sure to install a balancing damper at the point of take off. Return air ducts should be 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 the size of the corresponding supply duct and should connect to the furnace return in a manner that allows free flow from all the returns with minimal resistance and also so that all returns are filtered before entering the blower suction chamber.

Here he’s trying to help but didn’t answer the question! By the time he got to this point he probably forgot what was a question  about!

Kwtsat
Installing Cold Air Return (Basement)

Hello, in the place we bought which has a finished basement, there is not a cold air return. I want to install one. Because it is finished, the easiest way would be taping into the cold air return approx 2 feet from the furnace to run my line.
Is this acceptable? Any opinions appreciated.

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When I found this website: www.diynetwork.com on the web, I thought OK I’m done, definitely I’m in a wrong business because my would be customers will go there and take all the information for free! But when I’m actually started to read what that “expert” suggested to do a big sigh of relive exited my lungs!
So, let’s read this hogwash together and I will make some comments as we go:

1. The first thing you need to do is attach the takeoff to the main supply line. Mark the center point for the takeoff and drill a pilot hole using the cutting bit in the hole cutter. Preset the cutting tool to the correct diameter. Place the center guide in the pilot hole and start the cutting bit along the circumference of the hole. Use a right angle drill because you have to work in a tight space, but you can attach the cutting bit to any drill. The cutting bit then swivels around the center guide (figure E), forming a perfect circle.

Note: Sheet metal hole cutter and right angle drill are available at most rental centers or specialty stores.

I’m not aware if this tools are available "at most rental centers", rather not, but if it does you have to spend money on it. If not you can buy them easily at supply house. The cost of the hole cutter approximately $45 and right angle drill could be around $70! Congratulation with a big saving! At this point I would suggest hire a pro and save some money!

Expert Tip: When doing any heating or ventilating project, you may need to pull a permit, so check with your local municipality. In some cases, you may even need to hire a pro to help with this kind of project, so check on that as well.

Of course you may need to pull a permit! Next expert tip will be probably that you have to pull a permit before running a nail into the wall!

2. After the takeoff is in place, reach in and bend the tabs over (figure F) to secure it to the duct.

This guy actually doesn’t know the right way how to install a takeoff. Someone please tell him to contact me and for very, very small fee I’ll give him a run down!

3. Next, you need to install the ceiling register boot (figure G) so you will know how long to cut the supply duct. Center it between the joist and screw into place with self-taping screws.

Note: Use a power nut driver to drive self-tapping sheet metal screws.

I know it’s not a big deal but I never use screws for this matter, because they are sticking out too far and interfering with the drywall!

4. Measure the length you need for the supply duct. Take the measurement from about an inch inside the takeoff to about an inch into the boot collar.

The guy is completely out of touch with reality. He doesn’t know the right way how to make measurement. Beside that his measurement is wrong!

5. Cut the duct to length with a round duct cutter. You need to use a round duct cutter because the cutter actually removes a thin strip of metal along the cut line (figure H), which makes the cut a lot smoother. It is almost impossible to cut the metal with any other tool.

This guy is awesome! This tool actually designed to cut the duct which is already snapped together. But I never have seen that anyone in this business use this kind of tool. If this tool not in use it’s probably very expensive, so be ready to spend another $45, or hire a heating contractor and start saving money!
“It is almost impossible to cut the metal with any other tool” – I don’t know where this guy comes from! Maybe he won a competition among DIY-rs on that website, or maybe he just a boyfriend of the owner’s wife, but he definitely doesn’t know what he is talking about.

6. Snap the duct together. It has a special snap lock built in at the factory.

Well, sometimes it’s very easy to do, but sometimes it’s not, especially when you cut a piece of duct!
But why he doesn't explain how to put the duct together?

Safety Tip: Wear gloves and eye protection when working with sheet metal.

It’s funny but he comes up with this safety tip only after the sixth step, maybe he just lost an eye or cut his finger off? Just curious!

7. Install the damper into the duct by drilling a hole into the side of the duct and then screw the damper in place. The damper control indicator will show you whether the damper is open or closed (figure I).

The damper installation requires following of the special rules, otherwise it will make a lot of noise! But never mind listen to the expert!

Expert Tip: Dampers are critical for the efficiency of a forced air system. They allow you to adjust the amount of air flowing into each room balancing the system.

8. Put the crimped end in first, and then put the other end of the duct in. The takeoff rotates to make it easier to fit the duct into place.

“Put the other end of the duct in” – in what? The other end of this duct must be put on,  not in, but for the experts like this it’s very, very insignificant! And what he will do if the take off won't rotate?

Tip: Make sure the damper control is on the bottom of the duct.

9. Secure both ends with a few 1/2" sheet metal screws through the collar.

10. Add a couple of support brackets (figure J) to help support the weight of the duct.

11. Finally, attach the register to make it look a little nicer.

 

So after reading all of  this I got a question: Why is he doing that? If anyone can tell me why I would really appreciate your opinion!